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Shaping Kurald Thyrllan
Joined:
1/23/2003
Total Posts:
2,443
4
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
6/23/2009 12:28:17 PM
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Now, now, guys. I understand if you have a problem with what Shawn said, but let's not attack him as a writer. That's not the issue at hand.
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Uncommonly Stubborn
Joined:
9/26/2007
Total Posts:
1,124
1
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
6/23/2009 12:36:04 PM
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I have felt the arrogance. It's why I always joke about "putting another quarter in the machine" whenever someone brings up any subject concerning writing. Because we all know that Shawn will come to the aid and explain to us stupid readers why our concerns are not valid. How we need to educate ourselves, how we just don't know what we are talking about. It is borderline insulting to me, but I don't make a big deal of it because I generally make myself look like a dumb ass on these forums, so maybe I have a negative image.
I don't know if Shawn is a great writer, or even a good one. I would like to read his book if given the chance. I'm sure he has credentials and has met people that I will never have. But that doesn't mean his opinion is any more valid than mine. Assuming we are talking about opinions.
But the ultimate point of this thread I think is this:
George R.R. Martin is not your bitch.
-Neil Gaiman
No, he is not my bitch. But I am not his bitch either. Nor am I Shawn's bitch. I will choose to criticize anything I damn well please because I can do that. If he doesn't like it... too bad.
Champagne for my real friends and real pain for my sham friends.
Here's to swimmin' with bow-legged women!
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The Dude abides
Joined:
6/21/2003
Total Posts:
11,890
10
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
6/23/2009 12:59:21 PM
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Yes, but criticizing isn't going to make George R.R. Martin write any faster.
And Shawn being condescending isn't going to make the critics whine any less.
And people criticizing Shawn's writing when they haven't read it, when he is working as hard as he humanly could to network and break into a shrinking industry at a poor economic time--and doing a damn good job of it--isn't going to make him feel any less inclined to be condescending.
It's all a bit hurtful and doesn't get any productive discussion done.
And like it or not, you can't criticize whatever you like. Because these boards happen to belong to Shawn, Shane, and Terry Brooks, and Shawn happens to be dictator supreme.
So let's all just get along and hug each other and smoke the peace pipe.
Moving along, are any of George R.R. Martin's non-series books? I've been meaning to pick up Fevre Dream for a while now.
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Militant Liberal Badass
Joined:
2/3/2003
Total Posts:
5,502
5
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
6/23/2009 1:57:51 PM
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I really like G.R.R. Matin's writing and when he finally finishes the latest novel of Fire and Ice, I will buy it and I will read it.
I've read a few excerpts of Shawn's book and I like his writing style. When it gets published, I will buy it and I will read it.
I've got a big painting that is only half way finished that has been sitting on my easel for months, but I've been involved in a bunch of smaller commissions that have taken my time. My dealer is really after me to finish this one because he thinks he has a buyer for it. I'll get it done. That's the way it is. Art is not the manufacturing business.
"Those that live by the sword are often shot by those of us that don't."
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Uncommonly Stubborn
Joined:
9/26/2007
Total Posts:
1,124
1
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
6/23/2009 2:31:42 PM
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And like it or not, you can't criticize whatever you like. Because these boards happen to belong to Shawn, Shane, and Terry Brooks, and Shawn happens to be dictator supreme.
Sure I can. Maybe that will get me banned from this site. And if that is the case I would be sad. But I will continue criticizing whatever I like elsewhere.
Champagne for my real friends and real pain for my sham friends.
Here's to swimmin' with bow-legged women!
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Joined:
4/15/2008
Total Posts:
294
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
6/23/2009 2:34:25 PM
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No, you can't. You can't even begin to fathom the knowledge I have.
And who are you going to trust when needing to know why the sun rises?
I remember a episode of yes minister (a comedy) in which sir Humprey talked about the titels of the uper civil servants, they believed God called them God. I think this falls in the same category.
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Uncommonly Stubborn
Joined:
9/26/2007
Total Posts:
1,124
1
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
6/23/2009 2:38:47 PM
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... and I don't need Einstein to explain to me why my paper didn't get delivered this morning.
Champagne for my real friends and real pain for my sham friends.
Here's to swimmin' with bow-legged women!
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Shaping Kurald Thyrllan
Joined:
1/23/2003
Total Posts:
2,443
4
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
6/23/2009 3:02:48 PM
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Burky, Fevre Dream is supposed to be one of the best vampire novels ever written. It's certainly worth a shot, from everything I hear.
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Joined:
1/31/2006
Total Posts:
234
0
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
6/23/2009 11:06:49 PM
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Shawn I apologize in advance!
Heck, I don't even like Martin's books anyway!
lol
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Am I your Parton?
Joined:
1/23/2003
Total Posts:
7,422
4
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
6/23/2009 11:11:52 PM
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Wow....the egos of everyone involved in this thread is staggering.....
 Roland seriously...how old are you??
Shwan...a bit over the top the last time 
For all you malcontents by all means spit piss and vinegar for as long as you want I am also finished with this thread. To me bitching and moaning about something you have no control over for months and now years is pathetic. As sad as it is because of people who act like you are acting I hope Martin descides to use his MS as toilet paper one night and you all have to wait 2 more years for it.
Draw a breath,
a deep breath,
now hold it, my friends,
hold it long
for the world
the world drowns " - Join the Cadre of the Fallen -
http://www.myspace.com/silchas_ruin
"That's Smiley's. You don't want to go in there, it's where rats go to die-'
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Gunslinger
Joined:
8/7/2003
Total Posts:
4,350
2
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
6/23/2009 11:58:43 PM
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Look what Martin has done to this forum? The bastard!! 
I'm trying to lighten things up a little, but let the record show I never said Shawn was not a good writer or publishable writer. I said that his long paragraph regarding his attributes would make one think that he was already a very successful and much published author, when in point of fact, he is not. (yet.)
Cotillion (Stee), I'm fifty-five years old. And when I'm being talked to in a consescending manner as if I'm five years old, I perhaps react strongly to it. I never claimed to be the most mature person in the world. Heck, ask my wife - anybody who reads this stuff and collects it and makes a big deal out of it in his daily life, is a childish fool, in her opinion.
And although Shawn is certainly in control of this website, I don't believe I've done anything which would be grounds for banning. I haven't used a bunch of profanity, I haven't insulted Shawn (or others) in a personal fashion. I've expressed my opinion as to what I consider demeaning posts, and apparently some here agree with me and some here don't agree with me. That's the nature of debate and discussion and what I always thought was the point of these forums. 
And last but not least, to the poster who asked about Martin's non-series works, I've read Fevre Dream, an excellent historical vampire novel, and Dying of the Light, a futuristic sf novel, which was pretty good. I've also read many of his short stories, which range from decent to great. But I think he was born to revolutionize medieval epic fantasy, and it's just a shame to me that the man can't get the thing done in a reasonable length of time. At his current pace, the readers are not going to get to see the end of this masterpiece, and that, to me, is very sad. 
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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Shaping Kurald Thyrllan
Joined:
1/23/2003
Total Posts:
2,443
4
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
6/24/2009 6:30:55 AM
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Roland of Gilead said:
And last but not least, to the poster who asked about Martin's non-series works, I've read Fevre Dream, an excellent historical vampire novel, and Dying of the Light, a futuristic sf novel, which was pretty good. I've also read many of his short stories, which range from decent to great. But I think he was born to revolutionize medieval epic fantasy, and it's just a shame to me that the man can't get the thing done in a reasonable length of time. At his current pace, the readers are not going to get to see the end of this masterpiece, and that, to me, is very sad.
Roland, you've got to stop doing stuff like this. Your whole post was intelligent and articulate, you gave a nice little overview of Martin's other work... and then, out of the blue, you have to throw in a snide remark about aSoIaF right at the very end. It's tiresome and, frankly, well below your level of intelligence to continue to belly ache about it every time Martin's name is mentioned.
You've always been one of my favourite members on the board, but your inability to let it go is starting to wear on even me. Like Doug's little emoticon was portraying, there's a certain point where the dead horse is no longer worth the beating.
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Gunslinger
Joined:
8/7/2003
Total Posts:
4,350
2
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
6/24/2009 7:56:26 AM
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al'Kael, I'm sorry if I let you down in some way, but all I can say is I didn't feel my comments were "out of the blue," as this thread has always been about when or if the next book in Martin's series will be published.
If anything, the off-topic stuff would be discussing Shawn's relative merits as the expert on the publishing world. And I was attempting to slide away from that if possible.
I'm pretty sure, but correct if I'm wrong, that you are a generation younger than me . . . as are most of the posters here. I still maintain that many of the posters here would be just as impatient and intolerant as I am, if they were around Martin's age and were beginning that inevitable and somewhat horrifying contemplation of their own mortality.
I sincerely hope I'm completely off-base and Martin does a Stephen King without the serious life-threat, going full blazes and finishes the magnum opus in the next few years. But I just don't believe it, as nothing indicates to me that this will happen.
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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Kazz D'Avore ....................... Anabar Thy'lend
Joined:
7/15/2003
Total Posts:
4,295
3
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
6/24/2009 9:34:04 AM
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I've been sitting here reading posts and debating typing a response for two days now, so hopefully I can maintain some level of composure and make a somewhat coherent post here:
First, let's all calm down, its a freaking book (albeit one I'm absolutely dying to read). There's no legitimate excuse for about 30% of what's been written in this thread.
That said, there are some legitimate issues which need to be addressed. First, the initial point of the thread (and the hundreds we've had like it since I've joined). Its a simple discussion of whether or not this book will ever make it to print. Unreasonable or unfair, maybe. But its an internet forum, not a court of law. Unfair happens in 50% of the threads on this site, and a higher percentage at most other forums or boards I've seen. Heck, I posted one the other day calling some guy the worst person in the world (which I also unfairly stole from Keith Olbermann). That guy did something I find awful and pathetic. Does that mean its 100% legitimate for me to post his name and rip him a new one in a public forum? Probably not. But I have the right to do so. I have the right to judge what he did, form an opinion, and state it to others. I can't outright lie, but I can offer my interpretation of his actions and how they reflect on his character.
At the end of the day, from our random thread to Neil Gaiman's "he's not your bitch" rant, that's all any of us are doing. Anyone who struts around saying anyone else is flat our wrong or uninformed is acting in a ridiculous fashion. Sorry. Its true. Did Roland get carried away in some of his responses, sure. Have many of us on this very topic? Yes, certainly, me included. Did Shawn's response go well beyond the point of condescension? Absolutely. But even without those posts, we've all gone overboard throughout this thread and others like it. Hell, the whole concept in this thread started a rash of internet discussion culminating in the "he's not your bitch" remark.
At the end of the day, however, there are some irrefutable truths. The first of these is that anyone on this board or anywhere else, has the absolute right to criticize any author, any movie, any actor, or anyone else in the public realm - either for their creation (book, movie, play, music) or for their work ethic, if they so desire. If I want to go to general discussion and complain that Manny Ramirez cheated, I can. Sure, others may feel he didn't, or that it wasn't a big deal, or that everyone else was doing it, or whatever. People have a right to have different opinions. Its patently ridiculous for anyone else to pretend they don't have that right.
Heck, if I want to watch the US Open and say that Phil Mickelson lost this week because I don't think he devotes enough time to practicing his putting, and that i think he's gotten fat, rich and lazy...then I can do so. Sure, it ignores the fact that he's put in thousands of hours into practice and conditioning and mental training. But that's my opinion. In addition, though, if someone else pointed that out, it would be just as ridiculous for me to attack them for that OPINION, simply because I gave a serious amount of my life to the game of golf, gave professional golf a shot after a successful amateur and collegiate career, and know many great golfers, including a personal relationship with David Duval, among other PGA tour players. So what? That may give my opinion a different viewpoint, but if I told someone else that they had the maturity of a five-year old for thinking that Phil doesn't work hard enough, that would be appalling. The simple truth is that I may absouletly believe that he works very hard, and could possibly cause himself negative ramifications if he worked harder (including giving himself problems with being mentally prepared for events, or get himself so wired by over-analysis that he couldn't perform as well). Tiger Woods works harder than Mickelson...that doesn't mean that Phil is lazy, but it certainly doesn't preclude some random fan from saying he is.
Hell, my wife is an accomplished marathon runner, and the youngest Judge I know. She was a brilliant lawyer, and worked her tail off in her career. I love to run, but not as much as her. If she is faster than me, she could simply say that I have chosen to pursue other activities and that it makes a good runner, but not great. Or she could conclude that I can't run more than I do because the constant impact of running would be more likely to cause me knee or back problems long term. Or she could say I'm lazy. Whatever. There are facts, but she could very well come to the conclusion that I'm lazy. For someone to start yelling at her that she's an imbecile because she doesn't understand my side of it is a joke. She can think whatever she wants. That's what makes it an opinion.
The corollary to GRRM is simple. He has 24 hours in a day, 52 weeks in a year, etc. He absolutely, unequivocally, CHOOSES to devote hours every year to his miniature knights, his other books, his editing, conventions, his blog, etc. We can debate all day whether or not that hurts or helps him with ASOIAF, but absolutely NONE of us know anything resembling FACT. Its all our opinions. Maybe writing is a fundamentally different pursuit than any other job in the world. Or maybe its not and artists, for the most part, are self-centered, tempermental fools who lack the drive and responsibility to work on a schedule. Or maybe there are some artists in every field who work hard and diligently, and there are others who don't (for the sake of their craft, or because they have other priorities). Its really no different than any other job....and its similarity to professional athletes is relevant as well. Millions of sports fans spend time complaining about athletes - they don't care about the game, they don't play hard enough, they don't respect the game, or they act entitled because they earn so much money. You know what, some of that is true, and some of it isn't. Its on target for some people, and not for others. But, at the end of the day, some fans hate Randy moss because he doesn't try hard every play. And other fans love him because he tries when he plays now for their team. Again, its all a matter of perspective and opinion.
Was it unreasonable for us to think GRRM was going to finish ADWD when he first "promised"? Sure. But that doesn't mean we didn't have a right to be disappointed. Hell, if your dad has an addiction, and goes into treatment - are you fundamentally WRONG for hoping he doesn't fall off the wagon when he gets out? Are you a 2 year old mentally if you are disappointed when he does it again? Simply put, GRRM did disappoint his readers. Absolutely, some people on the internet have gone beyond the pale with insults and comments. Its gotten personal, which it really shouldn't have. And I can disagree with someone about what they think or why. But I can't tell them they don't have the right to think that way or feel that way.
All told, this was way longer than I'd intended, and I completely failed in making it coherent or clear. I apologize. Feel free to go on other forums and tell everyone my writing sucks. Its okay.
BUT - GRRM hasn't followed through on what he said. There is serious debate and disagreement whether or not his fans/consumers can call that unprofessional or lazy. There is a question that his particular writing style makes him an author prone to delays. The changes to his story and series made the delays worse. He's been overly optimistic in his promises/hopes, and we've been idiots to believe him or take it for anything other than a desire on his part. He's communicated with his fans, which has made it easier to handle the delays, and also much harder for many readers. Its a different time in the publishing world, with the internet, with blogs, etc....and he's a prime case of not dealing with it well.
But at the end of the day, maybe we should all agree to let it go. Its just not important enough for everyone to be at each other's throats, on either side of the issue. There are plenty of great things to discuss on this forum. Who knows?
CADRE OF THE FALLEN
"I love those who can smile in trouble, who can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but they whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves their conduct, will pursue their principles unto death." Leonardo Da Vinci
"Some believe in Destiny, and some believe in Fate, but I believe that Happiness is something we create" - Sugarland
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Militant Liberal Badass
Joined:
2/3/2003
Total Posts:
5,502
5
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
6/24/2009 11:07:59 AM
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I was going to read your post Spasticolon, but I decided to wait for the movie. 
"Those that live by the sword are often shot by those of us that don't."
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Shaping Kurald Thyrllan
Joined:
1/23/2003
Total Posts:
2,443
4
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
6/24/2009 12:20:32 PM
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Archer said:
I was going to read your post Spasticolon, but I decided to wait for the movie.
Roland, what I was implying was that the bolded comment was out of context in terms of the question Burky was asking, and you were answering. He didn't ask about A Song of Ice and Fire, in fact he asked about everything besides that.
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Gunslinger
Joined:
8/7/2003
Total Posts:
4,350
2
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
6/25/2009 12:13:45 AM
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Fair enough, al'Kael, I see your point, and I should have just mentioned the other works by Martin that I had read and avoided another opportunity to jump on SoIaF. 
Archer, hilarious comment. Still chuckling.
Spas, well said and not incoherent at all. 
My problems with Martin's delays are exacerbated by my being a fan since 1996. From my perpective, after falling in love with A Game of Thrones, I've seen three novels in 13 years and counting. Most of you came on board later than that.
I'm going to drop it now. At least on this forum.
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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Joined:
1/31/2006
Total Posts:
234
0
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
6/25/2009 1:07:37 AM
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I'm going to check "Fevre Dream" out of the library. Maybe that will be the Martin book that does it for me?
Sounds interesting!
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Am I your Parton?
Joined:
1/23/2003
Total Posts:
7,422
4
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
6/25/2009 3:07:44 AM
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SF go to the malazan page and read my post.
Draw a breath,
a deep breath,
now hold it, my friends,
hold it long
for the world
the world drowns " - Join the Cadre of the Fallen -
http://www.myspace.com/silchas_ruin
"That's Smiley's. You don't want to go in there, it's where rats go to die-'
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Joined:
4/15/2008
Total Posts:
294
0
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/11/2009 8:56:56 PM
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Tomorrow I am of to Germany. A great time to read all the books I haven’t found the time for before. Martin is now in Finland and the one thing we have in common is that neither of us has a copy of dance with dragons in our suitcase. Though for him this is of course less of an issue.
I do find it annoying that after all these year’s Martin has still not delivered the book. I know I have written this before but I still think that Martin spends too much time doing other things then write dance.
Shawn has tried to talk about the process of writing so that we can try and understand why Martin is still writing this book. Sometimes I understand what he tells us and why he keeps telling us it. Sometime I don’t.
But the case he is defending is a losing one. After all most of us claim that Martin just does not want to write this book or the series and that he has moved to or back to wild cards and other projects. When you look at the facts can you blame us? Look at what Martin self said:
My career is littered with the corpses of dead series.
Those are Martins own words written as an introduction for Dreamsongs volume II. He goes on and admits it made him look like someone with a terminal case of creatus interruptus.
He then goes one and says well Tuf Voyaging changed all that. Perhaps it did. He wrote five or six stories all about Tuf and bundled them in a single book. A book some of us have read and loved. He even wrote a second book of Tuf stories. So yes the curse was broken. Eh what you haven’t heard of a second Tuf book? Well that is possible because even though he sold it to a publisher he never wrote it. Instead he began working for Hollywood. Yes he had to because he needed the money but never the less he sold a book he never delivered. Or perhaps it was a choice of making more money because he admits he made more money in a couple of weeks in Hollywood then he could have made out of writing the book.
This is the man Shawn is defending and this is the writer we are waiting for. A lot of things can happen when you try to write a book and as fans we should nay we must respect that writing a book when a beloved one dies is impossible (Rothfuss). And there are a lot of more reasons why a writer can’t deliver a book on schedule. Conventions, other books, toys, calendars and so forth are not among them. If Martin or one of his defenders says that he has a right to do such things then I agree. When they tell me it is not the reason why the book is late then I do not agree. Last time I checked there are 24 hours in a day, no more no less. It is up to all of us to decide how to spend those hours but an hour or a minute gone is gone forever and cannot be re-used to do other things.
All said and done I am glad that there are more writers out there and I never run out of books to read. Perhaps there will even come a time when I see the book in the shop and instead buy a other book. I mean if I have to wait another five years then I won’t even know the name of all the characters anymore and finding the time to read new books is difficult finding the time to re-read is almost impossible.
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Uncommonly Stubborn
Joined:
9/26/2007
Total Posts:
1,124
1
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/12/2009 2:39:43 AM
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Wait, you're saying writing a book is hard? 
Champagne for my real friends and real pain for my sham friends.
Here's to swimmin' with bow-legged women!
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Militant Liberal Badass
Joined:
2/3/2003
Total Posts:
5,502
5
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/12/2009 4:18:57 AM
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There is an old Japanese proverb about a famous painter that was commissioned to paint a large picture of a duck that was then to be mounted to a scroll and displayed as good luck for a couple celebrating an anniversary. They paid the artist and waited, and waited, and waited, and no picture was delivered. By accident, they encountered the artist on the street and asked him about their picture. His response?
"I do not yet feel like a duck!" 
"Those that live by the sword are often shot by those of us that don't."
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Gunslinger
Joined:
8/7/2003
Total Posts:
4,350
2
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/13/2009 12:50:10 AM
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Let the record show that it was the other Roland, not I, who reopened this most contentious and controversial of threads.
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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Joined:
10/11/2006
Total Posts:
261
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/13/2009 1:10:08 AM
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I've been wanting to bump this thread just to be a bit of a S**T disturber, but I held off. Since someone else already did.....it's safe.
While reading most of the thread I've avoided posting in it until now.
It was because of authors like Jordan and Martin that I brought in my new policy of not reading anymore series until they were completely done. I read Game of Thrones when it first came out and loved it, but held off reading more of it because I just had that sneaking suspicion that it would take a long time for Martin to write and I'd have to re-read the series everytime a new book came out.
Most recently I've read the Mad Ship trilogy by Robin Hobb and I'm nearing the end of book 2 of Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy and it's been great being able to read the whole way through without having 1-5 year interruptions. There's plenty of completed series to read in the meantime and it doesn't bother me one little bit how long Martin takes.
Soon I might try & tackle Goodkind (possessed chickens and all) or maybe change it up to sci-fi and go with Buettner's Orphanage series. My father-in-law quite enjoyed the Buettner series.
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Gunslinger
Joined:
8/7/2003
Total Posts:
4,350
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/13/2009 1:20:46 AM
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or maybe change it up to sci-fi and go with Buettner's Orphanage series. My father-in-law quite enjoyed the Buettner series.
I recently bought that first Orphanage novel, and I plan to read it very soon. Looks quite promising, if you like Heinlein or military sf.
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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