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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/13/2009 10:07:58 AM
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Roland of Gilead said:
Looks quite promising, if you like Heinlein or military sf.
Sadly I've never read Heinlein. I've been a heavy sci-fi/fantasy reader for at least 20 years now (mid-30's) and for some reason haven't read anything from Heinlein, one of the Grand Masters of the genre. 
I do like the other military SF I've read though.
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Gunslinger
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/13/2009 12:13:38 PM
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Starship Troopers is Heinlein's major military sf work.
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/14/2009 11:07:58 AM
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I have to say I am really surprised to see some people talking bad about GRRM here. Terry spoils us and you can pretty much rely on a book a year from Terry, but not everyone fits that system.
We have only what GRRM tells us to go on, and while he does venture around the globe (can you blame him?) he spends a good portion of his time staying involved with his fans and working on stuff for us and this is how we treat him. We get angry and upset because he is not working fast enough to please each of us? Really?
Back to my point, I just figured the people here on TBF would not be the same ones that post on GRRM blog with vicious comments about his personal life because they wanted a book on their schedule.
Quoth the Raven....
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Gunslinger
Joined:
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/14/2009 12:55:39 PM
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he spends a good portion of his time staying involved with his fans and working on stuff for us
If you closely follow his "Not-A-Blog," (which is not only most assuredly a blog, but on another forum it was called "blog and billboard," which is accurate), you will find that the involvement with fans is most often his attempts to sell merchandise. This is certainly his prerogative if fans want to buy it, but it's time spent away from writing, and he rarely even bothers to update fans on his snail-like progress on the work that made him famous and able to sell said merchandise in the first place.
Should fans make vicious comments regarding his personal appearance or personal life? No. Should fans be able to question his professional work ethic and wonder why a book in a series under contract is taking so long to write? Yes.
IMHO, of course. 
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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Kazz D'Avore ....................... Anabar Thy'lend
Joined:
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Total Posts:
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/14/2009 2:16:47 PM
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Two thoughts:
First, from an announcement standpoint - according to Adam at The Wertzone, GRRM recently spoke in Finland (IIRC) and stated that he believes he'll have ADWD finished by Sept/Oct. of this year...meaning a Feb. 2010 release in the UK, and a US release a month or two later. Sort of good news.
Also, he indicated that he expects that the last two books will take approximately 3 years each to write (which would be an improvement in recent pace, and actually more in line with Shawn's overall projection, I believe). This would allow him to actually finish the books before season 7 of the HBO series would film, which would be a better way to handle it, I think.
Again, on the topic of fan complaints - why are we required to show such appreciation for artists like GRRM, but no one else? Quite simply, this entire country loves to harp on athletes (more than anyone else) and politicians and business leaders, and would be apoplectic if Derek Jeter suddenly decided that he couldn't be ready for the upcoming season on time, because he was attending a lot of camps and trips, and working on his instructional videos during the offseason, instead of working at his primary vocation. I can't even imagine the uproar and the personal attacks and media evisceration that would occur if anyone else did their job in the same way we're supposed to benevolently accept from authors. that makes no sense to me, muse or no muse.
CADRE OF THE FALLEN
"I love those who can smile in trouble, who can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but they whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves their conduct, will pursue their principles unto death." Leonardo Da Vinci
"Some believe in Destiny, and some believe in Fate, but I believe that Happiness is something we create" - Sugarland
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Gunslinger
Joined:
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/14/2009 3:39:48 PM
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I had heard a similar announcement myself, that on a Finnish website he stated that he hoped to have Dance finished by the end of the year, and then take three years to write the next novel.
I have some belief that the first statement might be true. I have much less faith in the second statement, as Martin's priorities and commitments doesn't lend credence to a three-year turnaround on a novel in a series with this much complexity and cast of thousands.
As for the athlete comparison, perhaps it's more general than that, and it's the current cult of celebrity. We study, embrace and condemn everyone in the public eye nowadays. Maybe it isn't even proper, maybe it's shameful, maybe it comes with the territory, I don't have an answer. But I agree that authors shouldn't be exempt. Martin basks in the accolades from peers and fans; he should be able to take the criticism, too.
Otherwise just vanish onto a deserted island, don't communicate at all, don't sell us anything, don't push ancellary projects, don't praise protege writers, don't offer us your travel itenerary, don't update us on your writing, don't throw yourself in front of the adoring and/or loathing public, period. And one day another book will appear, and that will be that.  
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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I Think, There I Am...
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Total Posts:
378
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/14/2009 7:20:31 PM
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Why the hell should Ice and Fire even be a priority? Like I said elsewhere here, Martin had a 30-year career even before he released that first book. He's got his creativity invested in all kinds of things—things that predate Ice and Fire. So why does he need to abandon all of that to please selfish fans? He doesn't. He shouldn't.
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Kazz D'Avore ....................... Anabar Thy'lend
Joined:
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/14/2009 8:11:41 PM
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So why does he need to abandon all of that to please selfish fans? He doesn't.
It's not that it should be a priority because of his selfish fans, its because ASOIAF absolutely dwarfs all of his other projects combined in every manner of measurement. Its Mr. Martin's Opus, if you will - the one thing that he will be remembered and cherished for as an author, more than anything else he created in the past or will in the future. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
CADRE OF THE FALLEN
"I love those who can smile in trouble, who can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but they whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves their conduct, will pursue their principles unto death." Leonardo Da Vinci
"Some believe in Destiny, and some believe in Fate, but I believe that Happiness is something we create" - Sugarland
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Uncommonly Stubborn
Joined:
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Total Posts:
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/14/2009 10:06:49 PM
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Why the hell should Ice and Fire even be a priority? Like I said elsewhere here, Martin had a 30-year career even before he released that first book. He's got his creativity invested in all kinds of things—things that predate Ice and Fire. So why does he need to abandon all of that to please selfish fans? He doesn't. He shouldn't.
Hmmm... perhaps because the ASOIAF series consists of the bulk of his fans. The success of this series is what garners him the luxury to venture off into other stuff. I have no facts to back this up.. just my opinions.
Champagne for my real friends and real pain for my sham friends.
Here's to swimmin' with bow-legged women!
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Web Straken
Joined:
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/15/2009 9:35:39 AM
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I can't wait until HBO starts production on the Fire and Ice Series, where GRRM will serve as head writer, thus delaying future books even more. 
No matter how cold the Winter, there's a Springtime ahead.
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Gunslinger
Joined:
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Total Posts:
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/15/2009 10:48:37 AM
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I agree with Spas and Freak's latest comments . . . and I fear Regnarax will be correct. The tv series, while certainly a cool entertainment for fans, will be nothing but another major distraction for Martin and will further delay the last two books' publication. 
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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Kazz D'Avore ....................... Anabar Thy'lend
Joined:
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/15/2009 3:53:19 PM
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I'd have to disagree on that point, Roland, only because I think that if HBO is pumping in millions and millions to get the entire series developed, he will be a little more under the gun to finish the last two books. If his current prediction is right, then ADWD comes out in the spring....and season one on HBO is on tv within a year. That leaves him 6 years to finish two books, if he tries to keep up with the production schedule. If he's later than that, HBO will be pushing on him even more (and with more authority) than us fans.
CADRE OF THE FALLEN
"I love those who can smile in trouble, who can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but they whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves their conduct, will pursue their principles unto death." Leonardo Da Vinci
"Some believe in Destiny, and some believe in Fate, but I believe that Happiness is something we create" - Sugarland
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Gunslinger
Joined:
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Total Posts:
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/15/2009 4:07:26 PM
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I think you are assuming that this venture is going to be an unqualified success. Not all adaptations are big hits. What if Martin spends all his time on the HBO stuff, and there's only one or two seasons ever aired? It's a massive production, and it will need to get large ratings to justify itself.
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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Kazz D'Avore ....................... Anabar Thy'lend
Joined:
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/15/2009 4:41:05 PM
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I plan to beg everyone I know (and pay them if necessary) to watch this show and pump up the ratings....we'll see if that works.
CADRE OF THE FALLEN
"I love those who can smile in trouble, who can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but they whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves their conduct, will pursue their principles unto death." Leonardo Da Vinci
"Some believe in Destiny, and some believe in Fate, but I believe that Happiness is something we create" - Sugarland
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Militant Liberal Badass
Joined:
2/3/2003
Total Posts:
5,206
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/15/2009 8:42:50 PM
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If it is produced with as much class as "Rome" then you certainly won't have to pay me to watch. Be grateful it's not being produced by SyFy (SciFi) channel. Remember their "Beowulf"? 
"Those that live by the sword are often shot by those of us that don't."
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Web Straken
Joined:
1/12/2009
Total Posts:
897
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/16/2009 8:43:26 AM
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Oh the SyFy channel, looks like it should be pronounced "Siffy" but that's off point.
I hope the series is great and Martin can finish up those books, at a pace of his own choosing of course.
No matter how cold the Winter, there's a Springtime ahead.
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Gunslinger
Joined:
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Total Posts:
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/16/2009 8:55:49 AM
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Oh, I don't deny I'm looking forward to the tv series, so much so that I'll probably subscribe to HBO just to see it.
But even very popular books don't always garner big ratings. Does anyone know how well Goodkind's adaptation is doing?
And there are other examples in other media. The Firefly series was doing so spectacular in DVD sales that the movie studio was convinced a big-screen sequel would be a huge success. The movie Serenity (although superb in my opinion) went on to bomb at the box office, and we're unlikely to ever see anything Firefly-related again. 
Rome lasted what, two seasons? I will be flabber-gasted if SoIaF actually stayed on the air for seven seasons, even if by some miracle Martin was able to keep up the pace.
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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Joined:
7/16/2009
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/16/2009 1:30:17 PM
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First post, here anyway. Hi everybody.
I can't wait until HBO starts production on the Fire and Ice Series, where GRRM will serve as head writer, thus delaying future books even more.
GRRM isn't head writer on the project. David Benioff and Dan Weiss are the head writers. The contract GRRM signed with HBO allows him to write ONE script per season and he'll only exercise that option if he has the time. To be honest, I can see him only contributing to Season 1 since that timing should fall between the writing of Books 5 and 6. For later seasons, less likely.
I think you are assuming that this venture is going to be an unqualified success. Not all adaptations are big hits. What if Martin spends all his time on the HBO stuff, and there's only one or two seasons ever aired? It's a massive production, and it will need to get large ratings to justify itself.
Production will be based at Belfast in Northern Ireland, or about 4600 miles from where GRRM lives in New Mexico. This by necessity limits the amount of time that he can spend on the project.
Also, whilst AGoT will require a certain level of ratings to stay on air, that level will be significantly less than ROME due to the difference in budget between the two projects (although given that almost all of that difference is down to the insane cost of filming in Italy, whilst Northern Ireland is dirt cheap by comparison, the results on screen should be comparable). In addition HBO now takes into account DVD sales and legal downloads as well as direct viewings, which they didn't at the time they cancelled previous shows like ROME and CARNIVALE. HBO have already said that if they were counting those things in 2007, then the ultra-high-budget ROME would still be on the air.
In short, AGoT's chances of staying on-air beyond the first two seasons (which is what it's virtually guaranteed if the show is picked up, as they'll need to be producing Season 2 whilst Season 1 airs) are pretty much excellent at this point. The show would actually have to be HBO's biggest bomb in the last decade not to succeed.
But even very popular books don't always garner big ratings. Does anyone know how well Goodkind's adaptation is doing?
It's been a big-ish hit and Sam Raimi's company is filming Season 2 of it now. TRUE BLOOD, HBO's current book-adapted fantasy series, has also been a big hit and looks like it's going to last quite a few years.
The Firefly series was doing so spectacular in DVD sales that the movie studio was convinced a big-screen sequel would be a huge success. The movie Serenity (although superb in my opinion) went on to bomb at the box office, and we're unlikely to ever see anything Firefly-related again.
Serenity didn't bomb, but it's profit margin in the cinema was small, only about $5 million. Add in DVD and Blu-Ray sales and it's actually pulled its weight respectfully. However, it's not enough for Universal to shell out another $40 million for another movie. Interestingly, SyFy have now said they'd love to do something with Joss Whedon in the vein of FIREFLY, leading to many fans asking them to do some FIREFLY TV or DVD movies (since the cast is now scattered over too many other projects to get them all back for a new weekly series), and they said they'd consider it. Might be fan-baiting BS, but you never know.
Rome lasted what, two seasons?
Yup, and HBO have said they've regretted it ever since. Their market analysts claimed Season 1 only got high ratings because it had THE SOPRANOS as a lead-in and Season 2 was inevitably going to bomb. The BBC also pulled out of their funding for the show. So HBO cancelled it, Season 2 aired, and got the same or slightly higher ratings than Season 1, and HBO were left with red faces. They've since said they're not going to repeat that mistake. Combined with the lower overheads, I think it's reasonable we'll see 2-3 seasons of ASoIaF at a minimum and all 6 (given the heavy hints that Books 4-5 will be collapsed into one season) are not impossible.
Visit The Wertzone for reviews of science fiction and fantasy!
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Gunslinger
Joined:
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/16/2009 2:17:22 PM
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Werthead, welcome to the site. I hope you're right on everything you say, but I think some of your comments are a little overly optimistic.
Of course, with regard to Firefly and SoIaF, I hope I'm dead wrong.
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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Web Straken
Joined:
1/12/2009
Total Posts:
897
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/21/2009 7:43:10 AM
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I was just reading the HBO: Game of Thrones post and I was wondering...do you think if the series does well that GRRM will say "Gosh, I really think this is a 10 or 12 book series not 7 like I thought would be."
I mean didn't he orginally only think it was a 3 book series?
Along this same rambling thought pattern, would you mind if he did split up his books more? I mean there's enough material in one of his novels to make a Terry Brooks Trilogy. It probably would help him make more reasonable deadlines and keep his "fans/critics" at bay. After all 7 of his books is really like reading 14 average size books.
No matter how cold the Winter, there's a Springtime ahead.
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Gunslinger
Joined:
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/21/2009 7:59:07 AM
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Would I pay a big hardcover price for a split up book? Well, technically, we already did for A Feast for Crows.
But yes, I would pay a big hardcover price for a two hundred page SoIaF novel from Martin. But I'm an idiot with no financial sense when it comes to books, so I'm probably in the minority on this one. 
The publisher can't take the chance that a dinky 200 page book wouldn't sell well, so I don't see them doing this, even if Martin would agree, and he's such a stickler, I don't see him doing it, either. 
Plus at this point, he's taken long enough to write a thousand pager for us.
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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ex-lurker
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1/4/2008
Total Posts:
169
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/23/2009 6:29:39 PM
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I have not been on the forum for 3 or 4 months (life got in the way) I can't believe this thread is still going
More to the point I can't believe I have just wasted the last 20 minutes reading it
Life is a song. Live the music
"We're all thinking she's got a crush on the poor sapper."
"And she showed her affection by beating him up?"
"She's a rough sort, sir
Memories of Ice - Steven Erikson
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Gunslinger
Joined:
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/24/2009 8:20:19 AM
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This thread has seen some real highs and lows. It could probably be used as a tool for a psychology class.
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/26/2009 2:28:46 PM
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I mean didn't he orginally only think it was a 3 book series?
That was the original plan. He was writing what he thought was A GAME OF THRONES back in 1995 and Bantam asked him how he was doing and he said that he was about 'half done' with the first book. Then they asked to take a look and realised that he'd written way, way too much material to fit in one novel with what he'd written already. So they found a likely cutting-off point (the dragons hatching) and that became AGoT. The material he had left over became the first half or so of ACoK (with a new prologue inserted). In his original plan AGoT ended with the Red Wedding!
On a related note, someone at Comic-Con yesterday asked GRRM's editor Anne Groell how big she thinks ADWD will be and she said it's well over a thousand pages already. I suspect she means 'manuscript' pages rather than final ones. A thousand MS pages equals about 750 hardcover pages, which means ADWD is about the size of AGoT and AFFC at the moment and getting bigger. ASoS was 1,500 MS pages and ACoK about 1,300, for comparison purposes.
Visit The Wertzone for reviews of science fiction and fantasy!
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Black Staff Admin
Joined:
1/20/2003
Total Posts:
13,745
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
7/27/2009 10:21:58 AM
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I suspect she means 'manuscript' pages rather than final ones.
That's correct. I talked to Anne at length about it... well... because I was standing right next to her for most of the convention as she answered that question over and over and over again. haha
George has indeed passed the 1000 page mark as of last week and those are, to him according to Anne, finished pages that will not be returned to. He also has several hundred more pages of not completed chapters that every week he makes progress on. Some of those will be in Dance; others will be in the next book. Anne also thinks she'll be getting the book by October or November, which to her would probably make it a February or March 2010 release, although the progress he is making is quickly happening and she could receive it sooner if those incomplete or mostly complete chapters come together faster. I say don't get your hopes up.
So good things are happening. Maybe not fast enough for some of you but fast enough for moi. It just shows that yes he is working on the book despite what some people on the internet(s) say.
Visit my website and read Chapters 1-5 of The Dark Thorn!
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