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Kazz D'Avore ....................... Anabar Thy'lend
Joined:
7/15/2003
Total Posts:
4,293
3
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/12/2008 7:09:23 AM
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I just found a related post that is quite amusing and/or symptomatic of the perceived problem among readers:
In a end of 2007 review/predictions column on the Fantasy Book Critic, one of the authors who responded to the site's questions was Joe Abercrombie. He listed his three most anticipated novels of 2008, which were:
1 - A Dance With Dragons - GRRM
2 - The Wise Man's Fear - Rothfuss
3 - The Republic of Thieves - Lynch
Likely a disappointing year for Mr. Abercrombie as well.
CADRE OF THE FALLEN
"I love those who can smile in trouble, who can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but they whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves their conduct, will pursue their principles unto death." Leonardo Da Vinci
"Some believe in Destiny, and some believe in Fate, but I believe that Happiness is something we create" - Sugarland
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Gunslinger
Joined:
8/7/2003
Total Posts:
4,344
2
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/12/2008 7:28:28 AM
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one of the authors who responded to the site's questions was Joe Abercrombie. He listed his three most anticipated novels of 2008, which were:
1 - A Dance With Dragons - GRRM
2 - The Wise Man's Fear - Rothfuss
3 - The Republic of Thieves - Lynch
Wow, talk about three strikes and you're out!! 
I hope he was so busy producing his own stuff (SO FAR ALWAYS ON TIME, AND HIGH QUALITY!!!!!) that he barely noticed. 
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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Joined:
4/15/2008
Total Posts:
294
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/15/2008 3:56:42 AM
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One of Martins projects, Warriors, has a deadline for 2010. So does that mean he will spend 2009 in reaching the deadline for warriors and the next wildcards or will he try to reach his deadline for dance with dragons which I assume has already gone by? One fan said that if this book comes out she will buy it but not with the same kind of feelings she had at the start of the series. I can understand that. A year or two ago this was the book I was looking most forward too. Now well I still want it but it is no longer the number one book I want. I wonder if I will even buy it if I have to wait 2 or 3 three years more. I mean if Martin feels he does not need our money why should we give it to him then?
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Kazz D'Avore ....................... Anabar Thy'lend
Joined:
7/15/2003
Total Posts:
4,293
3
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/15/2008 4:03:49 AM
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One fan said that if this book comes out she will buy it but not with the same kind of feelings she had at the start of the series. I can understand that. A year or two ago this was the book I was looking most forward too. Now well I still want it but it is no longer the number one book I want. I wonder if I will even buy it if I have to wait 2 or 3 three years more.
I wish I could say that, but I'll whine a lot until then, and run to the store immediately and purchase a HC for myself and one for my sister, the minutes its on shelves. Then i'll ignore my family for a day or two while I read it vorasciously...then re-read it immediately on a more casual basis over the following week.
Its shocking I can walk around like this without a backbone at all.
CADRE OF THE FALLEN
"I love those who can smile in trouble, who can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but they whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves their conduct, will pursue their principles unto death." Leonardo Da Vinci
"Some believe in Destiny, and some believe in Fate, but I believe that Happiness is something we create" - Sugarland
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Gunslinger
Joined:
8/7/2003
Total Posts:
4,344
2
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/15/2008 5:37:52 AM
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I think with David Gerrold sort of drifting off the map over the last few years, one could safely say now that Martin is the most annoying author working in the speculative genre today. Nevertheless, as Spas says, I'll no doubt buy Dance within a day or two of publication and make it my next read, even knowing that A), it may not live up to my expectations, and B), the next volume won't be published for a minimum of another half decade. 
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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Joined:
1/23/2003
Total Posts:
509
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/15/2008 6:28:13 AM
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Personally, I don't care how long he, or any other author takes to write their books. Who am I to give them deadlines? But for the love of everything (in general) don't make up deadlines that you have no intention in keeping. If he had just said from the outset that this was going to take him some time and he had to do some other work in between, we would have been disappointed, not angry. He has a great group of fans who are dedicated to him and his work, and we're always going to want more.
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Gunslinger
Joined:
8/7/2003
Total Posts:
4,344
2
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/15/2008 6:49:08 AM
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But for the love of everything (in general) don't make up deadlines that you have no intention in keeping. If he had just said from the outset that this was going to take him some time and he had to do some other work in between, we would have been disappointed, not angry.
I think you make a good point, Elfie, and it's certainly a major element in my dissatisfaction. I can't help but compare to Stephen King's Dark Tower. King never over the course of twenty plus years gave deadlines on his series, until early 2003, and then by God he delivered when he said the final three would be published in rapid succession. He always stated previously in interviews and author's afterwords that the series was a lifework which he returned to when the mood struck him. Also, he produced quality and quantity of other works to equal any author in the world during the intervening years.
Martin simply can't make similar claims, and it's become painfully obvious now that he's milking his newfound fame for all its worth. And even HE no longer spouts deadlines he can't make true, because he realizes how ridiculous they look.
It's unfortunate, because I truly believe he has revolutionized the medieval fantasy genre, and set a new high bar in the field. But I doubt if he'll ever conclude the series, and it will remain marred forever because the man didn't have the discipline to finish what he originally loved to write.  
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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Kazz D'Avore ....................... Anabar Thy'lend
Joined:
7/15/2003
Total Posts:
4,293
3
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/15/2008 7:12:27 AM
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one could safely say now that Martin is the most annoying author working in the speculative genre today.
I'm not sure I'd agree completely, quite yet. Melanie Rawn has had a bunch of reasons for not completing her Exiles series, but they don't make a lot of sense when you realized she has published a number of other books/series in the meantime. And there is no end in sight for her fans...as least Martin keeps telling me he's "working on ADWD" and feeding my false hope.
CADRE OF THE FALLEN
"I love those who can smile in trouble, who can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but they whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves their conduct, will pursue their principles unto death." Leonardo Da Vinci
"Some believe in Destiny, and some believe in Fate, but I believe that Happiness is something we create" - Sugarland
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Gunslinger
Joined:
8/7/2003
Total Posts:
4,344
2
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/15/2008 7:30:57 AM
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Melanie Rawn has had a bunch of reasons for not completing her Exiles series,
I don't read Rawn, so don't recall for sure, but didn't she have some sort of illness that delayed her works?
So far, Martin hasn't used that excuse, and hopefully he won't ever need to, but I've seen some candid photos of him at conventions, and let's just say he hasn't missed his five meals a day recently.  You're not going to see him on any healthy lifestyle posters, I guarantee it.
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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Kazz D'Avore ....................... Anabar Thy'lend
Joined:
7/15/2003
Total Posts:
4,293
3
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/15/2008 7:43:49 AM
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well, I know that she had shoulder surgery (a few years ago now) and there has been intimation that she had clinical depression, but I have no facts on that. So now I'm spreading rumors ...which isn't good. I know a lot of stuff has gone on for her, but its been over ten years since she finished the second book, and she hasn't moved anywhere on book 3. Its not even the next thing she'll publish. She's managed to pump out a few other series since then, but apparently the writer's block on book 3 (Capital's Tower) is too much and she hasn't been able to get through it...not a good sign at all for the chance of ever getting to read it.
CADRE OF THE FALLEN
"I love those who can smile in trouble, who can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but they whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves their conduct, will pursue their principles unto death." Leonardo Da Vinci
"Some believe in Destiny, and some believe in Fate, but I believe that Happiness is something we create" - Sugarland
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Joined:
1/23/2003
Total Posts:
509
1
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/15/2008 8:24:39 AM
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as least Martin keeps telling me he's "working on ADWD" and feeding my false hope.
haha as long as he is feeding the delusion. love it.
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Black Staff Admin
Joined:
1/20/2003
Total Posts:
13,963
5
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/15/2008 9:19:02 AM
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How can a writer milk a series if he doesn't put out more books? That comment Roland makes no sense to me. Sorry.
It is a statistical fact that when writers don't put out books in a timely fashion they actually lose money -- not only on books but on anything tied to it like merchandising. GRRM not releasing books in a timely manner loses more of his readership than if he came out with his books in a timely manner and kept those readers around.
Milking a series would be putting out substandard books three times a year, making money on crap. THAT would be milking his name and his series.
"I'm not for hire, and I don't get to choose my path." -- Sider Ament
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Bush League Critic
Joined:
3/15/2007
Total Posts:
4,158
12
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/15/2008 9:26:20 PM
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GRRM not releasing books in a timely manner loses more of his readership than if he came out with his books in a timely manner and kept those readers around.
This is dangerously close to my "whiner" point of view. It's not good for GRRM and it's not good for readers. Thanks for pointing out how it hurts everyone when authors lose focus/drive/interest.
- Doug
"Philosophy does not promise to secure anything external for man, otherwise it would be admitting something that lies beyond its proper subject-matter. For as the material of the carpenter is wood, and that of statuary bronze, so the subject-matter of the art of living is each person's own life."
The Bush League Critic - Speculative Fiction News and Reviews
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Black Staff Admin
Joined:
1/20/2003
Total Posts:
13,963
5
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/15/2008 11:07:48 PM
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Well, what drives me crazy about threads like this is the facts of the matter that everyone just decides to ignore because they are fans and they want their book. GRRM has never been a writer who published a book faster than 3 years, if you break down the times of his publishing.
Thrones - 1996
Kings - 1999
Swords - 2000
Feast - 2005
Dragons - 2009?
See that one year in there that separates Kings and Swords? That's the year when the publisher caught up to publishing the manuscripts GRRM had finished. From 1996 to 2000, he really only wrote 2 books, not 3, and not even two books since he had probably already written a considerable amount of Kings before Thrones was even picked up and published. At minimum, he can only write a book every 3 years, at best.
The problem that everyone overlooks because they are not writers and have no idea how the process works is that once a writer gets into the middle of a series the amount of possibilities of story threads created by what has come before goes to infinity. That means the story could literally go anywhere. Since GRRM is a "write as you go" writer and he has no idea where he is going, he lets the writing guide him rather than thinking it through before he begins. Since he is an editor as well, he wants that story to go the correct direction and that adds tension between writer and editor.
So he is having to fight his story the entire way now that he is in the middle of it, and fighting takes time.
Also keep in mind: It's better that he doesn't meander his way through that middle part by putting out a book because his fans demand him to. That's what Robert Jordan did and look at how his series fell apart. Something to think about.
You'll probably see the next two books Dragons and Winds take an average of four years a piece, and then you'll see Dream come out within two years as the final book. Why? Because by that time the amount of story thread possibilities is vastly reduced and there will only be so many ways he can go with each character. That will speed his writing considerably.
It's not the writing that takes time. It's the decisions a writer must make about where his characters are going that takes up the time.
Hate all you like. It is what it is. Get angry but it doesn't change the facts.
Shawn
"I'm not for hire, and I don't get to choose my path." -- Sider Ament
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Am I your Parton?
Joined:
1/23/2003
Total Posts:
7,422
4
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/15/2008 11:43:31 PM
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Shawn you kickarse
Draw a breath,
a deep breath,
now hold it, my friends,
hold it long
for the world
the world drowns " - Join the Cadre of the Fallen -
http://www.myspace.com/silchas_ruin
"That's Smiley's. You don't want to go in there, it's where rats go to die-'
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Bush League Critic
Joined:
3/15/2007
Total Posts:
4,158
12
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/16/2008 12:13:02 AM
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Hate all you like. It is what it is. Get angry but it doesn't change the facts.
Thank you, I've only ever wanted to get angry... not looking to change any facts.
- Doug
"Philosophy does not promise to secure anything external for man, otherwise it would be admitting something that lies beyond its proper subject-matter. For as the material of the carpenter is wood, and that of statuary bronze, so the subject-matter of the art of living is each person's own life."
The Bush League Critic - Speculative Fiction News and Reviews
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Gunslinger
Joined:
8/7/2003
Total Posts:
4,344
2
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/16/2008 12:39:33 AM
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How can a writer milk a series if he doesn't put out more books?
My comments re: milking the series referred to his constant hawking of related products on his blog. He has become obsessed with the sword replicas and the card game, and if you peruse his blog, it will be quite apparent.
The man's inconsistencies are there to read, if you take a look at angry fans who have taken the time to compile the evidence. I personally think any fan taking that much time out of their lives is nuts, but it's been done, so yes, I've read and been influenced. First he claims he doesn't even believe in blogs, and now he's spending time daily using his so-called "not a blog" to write weekly updates for his two NFL teams and incessant plugging of SoIaF merchandise.
He continually insists Dance is a priority, but then puts editing anthologies and writing other short story obligations ahead of Dance.
The guy is annoying, Shawn, I don't care how you spin his past book timetable. Quite frankly, he should just close down his blog and his website, go into seclusion, and either write or not write. But happy fans and angry fans alike should simply be left in the dark at this point, and wait for the book, like it was back in the pre-Internet days.
Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen, so yes, I'm going to continue to be irritated by the ridiculous delays. 
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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Am I your Parton?
Joined:
1/23/2003
Total Posts:
7,422
4
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/16/2008 12:43:02 AM
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Roland: How about just not reading him anymore? It would cut down on annoying posts like this one 
Draw a breath,
a deep breath,
now hold it, my friends,
hold it long
for the world
the world drowns " - Join the Cadre of the Fallen -
http://www.myspace.com/silchas_ruin
"That's Smiley's. You don't want to go in there, it's where rats go to die-'
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Joined:
12/20/2007
Total Posts:
3,246
0
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/16/2008 12:53:02 AM
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Will he live long enough to write 3 more books at his pace. Hes not a spring chicken and hes rather obese so his health at his age and weight is a factorin length.
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas jefferson
To be born free is an accident. To live free is a privilege. To die free is a responsibility.
— Brig. General James Sehorn
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Kazz D'Avore ....................... Anabar Thy'lend
Joined:
7/15/2003
Total Posts:
4,293
3
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/16/2008 1:23:25 AM
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Well, what drives me crazy about threads like this is the facts of the matter that everyone just decides to ignore because they are fans and they want their book. GRRM has never been a writer who published a book faster than 3 years, if you break down the times of his publishing.
Once again, however, one of the key facts isn't being discussed. Namely, in the summer of 2005, we were told explicitly that AFFC was being split into two books, and that it was because the book was too big to publish as one book. This wasn't happening because he wasn't going to finish it for years and years, it was a matter of getting AFFC out to the public, yes, but it was primarily because he couldn't fit the entire story into one book. We were then told that ADWD was almost finished and we could expect it very soon. This goes completely against the idea that he was going to take another five years to publish ADWD. Yes, tying the stories together and building the different threads in the direction he wants is terribly difficult, and his craftsmanship is brilliant....but that simply doesn't change the fact that we were told directly that ADWD was almost done in the summer of 2005, and that they would publish AFFC and then ADWD in very short order. In fact, GRRM made certain to repeatedly tell his readers that AFFC was being split for printing reasons, and NOT TO WORRY, that ADWD would be out soon as well.
Instead, he has chosed to work on other projects, and YES, he has milked ASOIAF (not in the way you describe) by taking full advantage of his well-deserved rise to the top of the genre. I don't begrudge him that, but I wish he would just tell us that ADWD is NOT, in fact, his top priority. He has published Hunter's Run, two Wild Cards books, worked on the Jack Vance anthology, and now the Warriors anthology as well...on top of myriad products related to ASOIAF, the republication of his YA fiction, and other stuff as well. And I realize that is entierly his prerogative...all I ask is that he be honest with his readers; and maybe he should start by being honest with himself.
Again, I have only two issues with this whole saga, and its not based on me just 'wanting the book' and being an annoying fan. Mainly, I prefer not to be lied to/misled about what is actually going on with the writing of ADWD. He clearly was not "almost finished" in 2005 - that is obvious given that it is nearly 2009 and he's not done. But second, based on his telling me its almost done, and then constant updates that he is "working on it" and its his "top priority" - I am growing concerned that he is, actually, really struggling with the story itself. That worries me simply because I love his writing and absolutely love ASOIAF, and I don't want to watch as it stumbles to a mediocre conclusion. That would be a bummer for me, but it would be terrible for GRRM as well. This is truly his life's work and his legacy as an author, and I simply sincerely hope he hasn't lost his way (or can find it again if he has), and that he can bring this incredible literary accomplishment to a brilliant conclusion like it deserves.
CADRE OF THE FALLEN
"I love those who can smile in trouble, who can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but they whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves their conduct, will pursue their principles unto death." Leonardo Da Vinci
"Some believe in Destiny, and some believe in Fate, but I believe that Happiness is something we create" - Sugarland
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Gunslinger
Joined:
8/7/2003
Total Posts:
4,344
2
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/16/2008 1:33:06 AM
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Spas, your post, in my humble opinion, is one of your finest to ever grace this forum. You summed up quite succinctly exactly why I'm annoyed, in a clear and articulate fashion. I applaud you, and wish I could have said it as well.
Stee, I will not quit reading Martin, and I will also not quit griping about his slow pace of writing. I will even admit that it's a testament of Martin's greatness that I should care enough to be annoyed and complain. And you know what? I'll probably get worse as Martin and I both continue to age and this series comes no nearer to conpletion.
He's not the first (and probably won't be the last) author that I loved his work, but found personally irritating. And fortunately I live in a country where I can still voice my feelings on this and a plethora of other topics.
"Roland Deschain was the last of Gilead's last great band of warriors, for good reason; with his queerly romantic nature, his lack of imagination, and his deadly hands, he had ever been the best of them." - Song of Susannah
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Am I your Parton?
Joined:
1/23/2003
Total Posts:
7,422
4
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/16/2008 1:42:34 AM
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Roland: I understand
Draw a breath,
a deep breath,
now hold it, my friends,
hold it long
for the world
the world drowns " - Join the Cadre of the Fallen -
http://www.myspace.com/silchas_ruin
"That's Smiley's. You don't want to go in there, it's where rats go to die-'
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Black Staff Admin
Joined:
1/20/2003
Total Posts:
13,963
5
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/16/2008 3:55:31 AM
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You guys were lied to?? Puhleeeease! Yes, he said he was close to being done with Dragons. He obviously doesn't look at the facts of his own history. Yes, he is guilty of that. But YOU GUYS are guilty of believing him. That's my entire point in all of this. The time table was staring me right in the face as it was with you guys. I chose to believe it; you guys chose to believe your wishes. I rest my case.
Dragons is a full fledge book, just like Thrones, just like Sword, just like Feast. It will be hundreds of thousands of words, not some short addendum he had to add onto Feast that he "almost had done." The idea you guys should be angry and annoyed because he promised you Feast quickly is ridiculous because he doesn't write books fast. As I've already shown -- as history as shown -- the man doesn't write quickly and no matter what he says about completing a book you guys shouldn't believe him. HELLFIRE, he shouldn't be trusted after all of the updates he said he would deliver Feast where he failed to do that!
So blame yourselves on this one, boyos. You chose to believe a man concerning Dragons who essentially lied to you for five years about Feast. When will you take responsibility for that, eh? Oh, you won't? Of course not. I'm just being stupid here. Fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice... call me George Bush.
Understand?
Shawn
"I'm not for hire, and I don't get to choose my path." -- Sider Ament
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Black Staff Admin
Joined:
1/20/2003
Total Posts:
13,963
5
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/16/2008 4:07:49 AM
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The real question I have is: When Wise Man's Fear comes out and Patrick Rothfuss says Book Three will be out in a year, are you going to believe him? 
"I'm not for hire, and I don't get to choose my path." -- Sider Ament
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Kazz D'Avore ....................... Anabar Thy'lend
Joined:
7/15/2003
Total Posts:
4,293
3
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RE: Will It Ever Be Published?
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Posted:
12/16/2008 4:24:04 AM
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So blame yourselves on this one, boyos. You chose to believe a man concerning Dragons who essentially lied to you for five years about Feast. When will you take responsibility for that, eh? Oh, you won't? Of course not. I'm just being stupid here. Fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice... call me George Bush.
again, Shawn, you aren't really understanding my point, so I won't go through everything again. The simple fact is that I am starting to worry that GRRM honestly thought he was almost done with ADWD, and he did IN FACT have a large portion of the book completed when they made the decision to split AFFC into these two books. Hypothetically, say he was 75% done with his first draft of ADWD. (this is pretty reasonable given the intertwined storylines and how they made the decision to split the stories. This means that he is taking 4-5 years to finish editing/rewriting those chapters and come up with the remaining 25% and/or the add-ins to bring the books ending together with where he left storylines at the end of AFFC.
There isn't any outrage in my post about being lied to...its the simple fact that contstantly telling me its his top priority and he's almost done IS a lie, but it underscores the more important problem. It means he is simply NOT making anywhere near the progress you'd expect, even with a full understanding of his previous delays/explanations. He is simply having a great deal of trouble pulling the threads togther on his story. Either this is because he's distracted by other projects, of simply because the task is extremely daunting and difficult. BUT, this is where my concern lies - if the problem really is basically a challenge in tying up the story and getting it where it needs to go, that scares the heck out of me. I have a real interest in seeing this story through with the quality and unique writing that we've come to expect from GRRM. There simply is not another story or another author who engages me like ASOIAF, and I'm just worried that this won't get finished in the same manner. That is a frightening prospect, and I'm merely expressing my hope that GRRM doesn't fall apart trying to complete it. Its like I've watched a pro athlete excel his entire career, and then in the last years, just as he's approaching becoming an all time great, injuries or a really crummy team around him start to take their toll. GRRM has a chance to be the preeminent author in this genre, and ASOIAF has a good chance of being the best written and most enjoyable series ever written in the arena of speculative fiction. I just hope that he can pull it off, and these continual delays make it more frightening.
CADRE OF THE FALLEN
"I love those who can smile in trouble, who can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but they whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves their conduct, will pursue their principles unto death." Leonardo Da Vinci
"Some believe in Destiny, and some believe in Fate, but I believe that Happiness is something we create" - Sugarland
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